Welcome to Saddleback: the Candidates, Pastor Rick and Some Real Answers
Pastor Rick Warren, of Saddleback Church and the "Purpose Driven Life" has done us all a great service by creating, hosting and running a candid, serious and probing set of interviews with Barry and John-boy. Or given how it played out perhaps we should say, Sen. Obama and McCain. Everyone comported themselves with great dignity, forthrightness, integrity, honesty and spoke well. Despite what you may have heard the reach and range of the questions is such that you really need to watch this for yourself. In aid of that goal after the break you'll find URL pointers to both the CNN online video clips as well as C-SPAN's; and a pointer to a full transcript as well. You'll also find some related readings excerpts associated with their related URLs, if you want to click on through and read the whole thing. We didn't grab everything but did try and grab a representative sample who seem to be reasonably accurate and useful, in our judgment at any rate. Even where we didn't entirely agree with the assessments on either side of the analysis.
Pastor Rick did a superb job and, in our opinion, a serious public service for the nation. You are not likely to hear anything better in this campaign. In fact he set the tone, as well as defined some critical aspirational principles we'd like to see return to the center of our public square.
- We believe in the separation of Church and State. We do not believe in the seperation of Faith and Politics because Faith is a worldview that should help determine your choices.
- We need to learn to to disagree without demonizing each other. We need to return Civility to Public Discourse.
Bottomline you need to watch these - if you're going to vote there is, we think, no better use of your time. Particularly since the general consensus - while not grossly inaccurate - filters out too much, doesn't catch the implications and misses to much of the deeper character because too many of the commentators didn't understand what they were hearing on several levels. You might also want to check out some of the vidclips of Pastor Rich - who agree or not, share his faith or not - is both eloquent, thoughtful and experienced in the ugliness of the real world. His efforts here should change for the better many of the negative impressions bandied about in the MSM and commentariat about Faith-Holders, evangelicals in particular. Beyond that if you have a view of them as simple-minded, monolithic and incurably benighted at least know your opponent better. You might be surprised.
The "consensus" seems to be that John-boy was direct, forceful and impressive. He was certainly better here than in any other venue we've heard him. And that Barry was subtle, nuanced and careful. At a superficial surface level that's probably accurate. But doesn't begin to go far enough, though some of the excerpts provide examples that are fairly accurate. Let me offer up my key impressions.
1. First off these are both impressive people - principled, intelligent, and wanting the best for their country. At the end of the day I ended up liking and admiring them both and would be privileged to have them as friends, colleagues or comrades. On our historical scale solid B players. Bear in mind the list of A players is pretty short, e.g. George, Abe, Teddy and so forth. It's grading on the curve and it's a tough curve. But then it darn well should be, shouldn't it ?
2. The differences of nuance verses directness that everybody has commented and concluded on misses a fundamental and critical point. John McCain is of a generation and upbringing where clear, even simple, fundamentals were what you acquired, grew up with and developed over your lifetime. Barrack Obama is a child of a different, more complex, more diverse age and upbringing. One perhaps more accurately reflective of the world we must find our way in. Yet neither is right or wrong in and of themselves. In fact you need to be sensitive to complexity but able to decide, act and carry thru on fundamental core principles. Which man bests suits the times is for you to judge, but if you're honest, hard to do because we need a balance of both.
In case the commenters completely missed the backstory here and, therefore, how it's likely to play out among different voter groups depending on what they're sensitive too.
3. The initial questions were on character, specifically tell me about a major choice you had, a moral failure of yours and a touch, morally challenging decision. And who would be your go-to counselors. Barry's answers were of a thoughtful, civilized person. His advisers - his wife, grandmother and so forth. John-boy's were Gen. Petraeus, Meg Whitman and John Lewis, a great, black civil rights leader who almost died from it.
The most telling differences probably lay in the "tell us a tough choice". Frankly Barry's escapes me - some personal trivia. John-boy's was to stay in prison and continue to be tortured. Asked to answer the equivalent question on a tough leadership decision Barry answered, "when John and I worked together on campaign finance reform". McCain's was when I bucked the most respected Republican president of the time, Ronald Reagan, on his Lebanon decision because he was wrong; and even though it could have destroyed my career which was just starting.
Barry's a nice guy but John's beliefs come from having lived thru the fire and paid full ferry toll for them.
4. On the other hand John-boy's stump speech tirade that fundamental Islamic radicalism is the major crisis of our time was out of place and, after several thousand words of analysis, and much research, beyond plain wrong. It's merely one of many, not the most important though perhaps the most immediate. China and the BRICs, Russia's primitive revanchism, and a serious economic downturn are in fact more serious, urgent and consequential.
5. Speaking of which not much was said directly to the economics issues though it was dealt with in passing via taxes and "who's rich". Barry's answer was a policy wonks while John-boy's was wishy-washy, ill-thought and ill-expressed. In the larger scheme neither candidate has come up with comprehensive, workable or sensible economic policy proposals. This will be the single most important issue after January and neither seems to have a grasp.
6. As a final note, pro or con, all the commenters seem to feel that John-boy was in a home-court audience while Barry was dealing with a potentially unfriendly crowd. Perhaps - and while John caterred to their core interests he wasn't very expressive or insightful on matters of faith. That may be the private person. Barry on the other hand did get several rounds of heartfelt applause - these are not Oral Robert's "Moral Majority". More back to the "Social Gospel" of Christians doing good. And that should NOT be under-estimated. MUCH more importantly Barry displayed a comfortable familiarity with Scripture and a more than surface reading. He'd clearly read, understood, internalized and was acting on Scripture. And these people would recognize that. Yet another major point that no talking head or commentariat appartchik got.
Bottomline - well to tell the truth I'm still not sure. As an old rock climber we used to have an interesting test. Would you let this guy hold the other end of the rope if you were on lead ? Understanding that the guy on lead had a many feet freefall if he slipped and your life depended on the guy on the safety rope being willing to take some serious pain to arrest you. John-boy would without a doubt. Barry...well I'm not sure.
On the other hand John-boy might damm well get you climbing directly up some damm face you had not business being on or didn't even need to climb. With Barry you could sit down and work thru the alternatives, pick the right climb, avoide it altogether and maybe go shoot some hoops and have a brew.
Video Clip Sources
CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/17/forum/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
C-SPAN
Obama - rtsp://video1.c-span.org/archive/c08/c08_081608_obama.rm
McCain - rtsp://video1.c-span.org/archive/c08/c08_081608_mccain.rm
Full Transcript of Faith Forum
Background vidclips on Rick Warren
TED Talks: Pastor Rick Warren, author of The Purpose-Driven Life, reflects on his own crisis of purpose in the wake of his book's wild success. He explains his belief that God's intention is for each of us to use our talents and influence to do good.
Charlie Rose Interview: A conversation with pastor Rick Warren, author of the book "A Purpose Driven Life", about religion in modern life, particularly Christianity. He also discusses his missionary and relief work with an emphasis on the global AIDS epidemic.
Appearance at Harvard’s Kennedy School: Election 2004: A New Spiritual Awakening?
Readings
Saddleback: The Contrast A fascinating night that gave us a peek at the fundamental contrast between these candidates. They both were very good, but in entirely different ways. Obama was relaxed, reflective, polished, and conversational—truer to the spirit of the event. McCain was energetic and forceful, but relied more on his favorite lines—treating it more like one of his townhall meetings (he had the advantage of an overwhelmingly friendly crowd). Obama was every bit the impressive, likable young man. McCain was the elder statesman telling his best stories. Obama was fluid and comfortable talking about his faith. McCain said the bare minimum about it. But the starkest contrast came as soon as McCain started his half of the forum. Asked the three people he would listen to as president, McCain said right off the bat Gen. Petraeus (Obama had led with his wife and grandmother). It was an immediate signal that this is a man who is concerned first and foremost with matters of war and peace—just as you expect from someone who wants to be president of the United States. Asked when he had bucked his party at risk to his self-interest, McCain rolled off his greatest hits, and went all the back to differing with Reagan on Lebanon (a reminder of how long he has been immersed in national-security issues). It made Obama's answer about promoting an ethics law with McCain seem incredibly weak in comparison. Then, McCain's answer about the toughest decision he had ever made—refusing early release in Vietnam—was riveting and moving.
Not a Preview of Fall Debates I only saw the tail end of Barack Obama's half of the great Saddleback Church semi-debate tonight, but I caught most of the highlights afterward and I saw all of John McCain's performance. The CNN talking heads all thought the big difference between the two was that McCain came across as direct and forceful while Obama came across as thoughtful and nuanced, but that's not quite how it struck me. For better or worse, Obama seems to have chosen to treat this event as sort of an intimate evening with Rick Warren — that just happened to be nationally televised. McCain, by contrast, treated it as a straight campaign event: he had his stump speech talking points ready, and he was eager to cram as many of them into his 50 minutes as possible.
McCain as Good as Obama Was Bad I don't want to get to overheated about what occurred tonight, but I do think McCain had a clear and decisive victory over Obama. It all comes down to something that Phil Bredesen, the Democratic governor of Tennessee recently said about Obama: “Instead of giving big speeches at big stadiums, he needs to give straight-up 10-word answers to people at Wal-Mart about how he would improve their lives.” By that standard, McCain did extremely well and Obama did very poorly. McCain's answers were direct, confident and, most importantly, serious. When asked about what leaders he would consult as president, he first suggested Gen. Petraeus, architect of the surge, who he correctly praised as one of America's all-time great military leaders. By way of contrast, Obama suggested he would seek out the advice of a typical white person, er, his grandmother and his wife Michelle, who's still trying to decide whether she's proud of her country.
McCain Tonight I don’t know how to say this more clearly: If John McCain can perform during the three debates the way he is performing tonight with Rick Warren, he will win this election. The contrast between him and Barack Obama (who answered the same questions an hour before him) has really been quite startling. In every case, McCain has answered substantively, directly, and with a surpassing command of detail. Obama talked around most issues; perhaps most oddly, he said Clarence Thomas was the one Supreme Court justice he would not have selected because he hadn’t had enough experience (Thomas had been on the federal bench for a year and a half before he was nominated, which is about as long as Obama was in the Senate before he began seriously considering a run for the presidency). Once again, as was true in his debates with Hillary Clinton, Obama has a problem when matters get down to specifics and his rival is better prepared and more comfortable with them than he is.
McCain's Back in the Saddleback Quick first impressions: Obama spent more time trying to impress Warren (or to put another away) not offend Warren while McCain seemingly ignored Warren and decided he was talking to folks watching on TV. The McCain way of handling this forum is usually the winning way. Obama may have had more authentic moments but McCain was impressively on message. This was a mistake Obama made a few times during the primary season. On one hand, it can make a moderator feel good when their subject actually tries to answer every question and take into account their opinions on a particular topic. And Obama's supporters will email me tonight and say this is what they love about him. And yet, this reminded me of the many comparisons we made between Obama and Hillary Clinton. She was much more effective at answering questions in 90 seconds and always staying on message while Obama too easily allowed himself to get knocked off his talking points. Remember, Obama doesn't need to win over his supporters, he needs folks who are just now tuning in.
McCain's Depth & Experience Stood Out It’s fair to say that in the hours before John McCain appeared with Barack Obama at the “Saddleback Civil Forum on the Presidency,” here at Pastor Rick Warren’s famed southern California mega-church, there were at least a few McCain insiders who were a bit nervous about their candidate’s prospects. Obama can be remarkably polished in this sort of situation. Unlike other Democrats, he’s not afraid to hang out with evangelicals. McCain, on the other hand, can at times be cranky and take pleasure in irritating his base. Could he come out ahead in this one? Team McCain needn’t have worried. This was not your usual political TV show. Warren — Pastor Rick, around here — asked big questions, about big subjects; he wasn’t concerned about what appeared on the front page of that morning’s Washington Post. And his simple, direct, big questions brought out something we don’t usually see in a presidential face-off; in this forum, as opposed to a read-the-prompter speech, or even a debate focused on the issues of the moment, the candidates were forced to call on everything they had — the things they have done and learned throughout their lives. And the fact is, John McCain has lived a much bigger life than Barack Obama. That’s not a slam at Obama; McCain has lived a much bigger life than most people. But it still made Obama look small in comparison. McCain was the clear winner of the night. The contrast was striking throughout each man’s one-hour time on stage. When Warren asked Obama, “What’s the most gut-wrenching decision you’ve ever had to make?” Obama answered that opposing the war in Iraq was “as tough a decision that I’ve had to make, not only because there were political consequences but also because Saddam Hussein was a bad person and there was no doubt he meant America ill.” But Obama was a state senator in Illinois when Congress authorized the president to use force in Iraq. He didn’t have to make a decision on the war. That fact was a recurring issue in the Democratic primaries, when candidates Hillary Clinton, Joseph Biden, Christopher Dodd, and John Edwards argued that they, as senators, had to make a choice Obama didn’t have to make. And now he says it’s his toughest call. When McCain got the question, he was able to tell an old story with a sense of gravity and poignancy that he seldom shows in public. He described his time as a prisoner of war, when he was offered a chance for early release because his father was a top naval officer. “I was in rather bad physical shape,” McCain told Warren, but “we had a code of conduct that said you only leave by order of capture.” So McCain refused to go. He made the telling even more forceful when he added that, “in the spirit of full disclosure, I’m very happy I didn’t know the war was going to last for another three years or so.” In one moment, he showed a sense of pride and a hint of regret, too; he came across as a man who did the right thing but not without the temptation to take an easy out. In any event, the message was very clear: John McCain has had to make bigger, more momentous decisions in his life than has Barack Obama.
McCain's Clarity vs. Obama's Nuance When I was little, I had a recurrent dream that there was a terrible earthquake. My father, his body a horse with wings, swooped down from the sky, kneeled so I could jump on his back and flew away just as the earth cracked open beneath me. It was my most comforting dream. I want to live in that world again. I want to live in John McCain's world. My father was a military man. My parents were friends of McCain's parents and lived in the same apartment building. My father's closest friend was Barry Goldwater, McCain's mentor. Those were the days when men were men, when the differences between good and evil were clear, when they knew where they stood on every issue, when life was less complicated, when there was an air of insouciance, no matter how difficult the issues. I want to live in a world where Gen. David Petraeus and Meg Whitman, former chief executive of eBay, are the wisest people I know, where offshore drilling will help ease our energy crisis, where a guy stays in a Vietnamese prison camp even when told he could get out, and has great stories to tell. I want to live in a world where I was absolutely certain that life begins at conception, where a man is a maverick and stands up against his Senate colleagues when he disagrees with them, where the only thing to do with evil is defeat it, where a guy will follow Osama bin Laden to the gates of Hell to capture him. Obama came first, and he handled himself well in front of an audience that clearly disagrees with him on many issues. He also managed to put to rest the notion that he is a Muslim, which 12 percent of Americans still believe he is. He talked directly to Rick Warren as though they were having a real conversation, whereas McCain played to the audience, rarely looking at Warren. He was low-key, thoughtful and nuanced.
That kind of nuance is hard to understand sometimes -- it's unclear, complicated. Obama's world can be scarier. It's multicultural. It's realistic (yes, there is evil on the streets of this country as well as in other places, and a lot of evil has been perpetrated in the name of good). It's honest. When does life begin? Only the antiabortionists are clear on that. For the majority of Americans (who are pro-choice), it is "above my pay grade," in Obama's words, where there is no hard and fast line to draw on what's worth dying for, and where people of all faiths have to be respected. I would rather live in McCain's world than Obama's. But I believe that we live in Obama's world.